Kids, Tech & the Good Enough Digital Parent // with Katie Davis

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Welcome to know them.

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Be them, raise them a show that helps moms be and raise strong

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women, Through regular audio doses of information and inspiration.

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I'm Carmelita to mom of two tween, soon to be teen girls, spouse, co-parent,

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life coach, working mom and your host.

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So today's topic, kids and technology use, is one that is so

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pervasive that it's almost cliche.

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We've all asked ourselves how much screen time should kids have?

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Am I giving my kids too much?

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Am I a bad parent for letting my kids spend an entire rainy

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afternoon playing Roblox?

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When should they get cell phones?

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The list goes on and on.

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That's why I leapt at the opportunity to chat with Dr.

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Katie Davis associate professor at the university of Washington (UW) and

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director of the UW digital youth lab.

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Dr.

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Davis holds two master's degrees and a doctorate in

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human development and education.

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From Harvard graduate school of education.

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For nearly 20 years, Dr.

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Davis has been researching the impact of digital technologies on young people's

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learning development and wellbeing.

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She has published more than 70 academic publications and is the author of

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three books exploring technology's role in young people's lives.

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The app generation with Howard Gardner, Writers in the secret garden.

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Fanfiction youth and new forms of mentoring with Cecilia Aragon, and

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most recently technology's child.

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Digital media's role in the ages and stages of growing up, which

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was released in March of 2023.

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In each of these books and in our interview,

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Dr.

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Davis draws on her expertise in developmental science

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and technology design.

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As well as her experiences as a parent to help us make sense of the often

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confusing landscape of research and media messages about kids and technology.

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Here's our conversation.

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Hello, Katie.

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It's so great to meet you and talk with you.

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I'm just really excited to hear your thoughts on this

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important issue and your book.

Katie Davis: 00:02:11

Thank you so much for having me, Cat.

Katie Davis: 00:02:13

I'm delighted to be here.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:02:14

I'd love to start by hearing you share with

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the listeners a little bit about what brought you to the work that you do

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:02:21

and the books that you've written.

Katie Davis: 00:02:24

Yeah, so I've been researching kids and technology

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for almost 20 years now.

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It's hard to believe.

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But before that, my professional hat that I wore was as an

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elementary school teacher.

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And so this was back in the early to mid two thousands.

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And, you know, I, loved teaching.

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I always wanted to be a teacher.

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I wanted to be a teacher and a writer.

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and I feel like I still am, I'm a writer for sure, and I get to teach

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still, but older kids, and adults.

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But, I was always interested in how children come to learn about.

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Themselves and their role in society.

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And as I was experiencing life as a teacher in the classroom and sometimes

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outside the classroom, for instance, talking with parents or doing lunch duty,

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it became clear to me that technology was increasingly becoming central to how

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that happened and how young people learn, how they develop, how they make sense.

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Of the world.

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And so I went to graduate school to really understand a little bit more how

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were these new technologies transforming the process of learning and development.

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. So I went to grad school in 2005.

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And if you think about what was going on that time, MySpace was still very big.

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Facebook had just launched and it was only available for, college

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students and only in a limited way.

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YouTube was new, very new and we were just on the cusp of so many interesting and

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transformative technologies, , and so.

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Being able to be a researcher starting back then, all throughout this time

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and watching the changes and the new platforms that have come online, and

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I've now written three books about some aspect of kids and technology

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and it's just been, so interesting to watch the changes over the years.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:04:22

Hmm Hmm.

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Well, speaking of your latest book, technology's Child, digital Media's role

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in the ages and stages of growing up?

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I love how it's structured because as a busy parent and, not having

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toddlers anymore, I sort of.

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Skimmed over the, the sections, the chronology of, you know, early

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stage development, et cetera.

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so it, it just feels very practical and approachable.

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you clearly pack a ton of information into this, but again, it feels very

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accessible because of the way it's set up.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:04:53

And, the language that you write in felt very straightforward.

Katie Davis: 00:04:57

Yeah, it was actually by design.

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I did that because, you know, I, as a researcher, I've been very comfortable

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with the complexity of this area.

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It's, it's very complicated.

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Whenever people ask me, what's the impact of technology on kids?

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Is it good or is it bad?

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I have invariably answered, well, it's complicated.

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Sometimes it can be good, sometimes it can be bad.

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But then when I became a parent myself, I realized that that doesn't really give

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you concrete strategies for parenting.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:05:25

Hmm.

Katie Davis: 00:05:25

And so I was really motivated to write technology's child

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in an attempt to bring my researcher hat and my parent hat together and,

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and try and give my parent self some concrete, actionable advice.

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That I could actually use day to day.

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And so that's what I was really trying to do for myself and

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for parents and teachers.

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I addressed, learning as well.

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And so, yeah.

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I'm really glad to hear that, you found the same thing.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:05:52

definitely.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:05:53

Well, and, and right off the bat, I think it's part of the introduction, but

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you made a statement about how asking whether screens and screen time are

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good or bad are not the right questions.

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It's just technology has become too central to our lives.

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And I have to admit, when I read that I had this weight lifted off my shoulders

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because I think part of me is still stuck in that like, screen time is bad

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I need to manage, I need to.

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Put like hard boundaries on these things and it really, I don't know if

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normalized or just sort of, validated the complexity of the issue and it made

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me think, okay, there's a different way and it doesn't have to mean black

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and white, like draconian measures that to date have not felt very successful

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when I've been trying to implement anything of the sort with my daughters.

Katie Davis: 00:06:40

That's right.

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It's really, you know, to ask is it, is it good or is it bad?

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You know, we're, we've left that question.

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Far behind, especially since the pandemic technology is just so

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firmly entrenched in our lives.

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It's really hard to escape.

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And so the question I'm asking in this book is, when is technology good and

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when is it bad for children's development at different stages of development?

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And so I look at different stages starting from toddlers, going all the way up

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to 20 something in emerging adulthood.

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And I look at.

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When can technology support healthy development?

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And what are the signs importantly, and when might it undermine or get

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in the way of healthy development?

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And I really boiled down the research into two steps.

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So I call it the two step decision tool to evaluate is this experience that

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my child is having, is this good for them or is it not so good for them?

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And so the first step, and I use this every day in my

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parenting of my son Oliver.

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I ask, is this experience self-directed?

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And by self-directed, I mean, is this.

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An experience where my son is in the driver's seat of his technology

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experience and typically the kinds of technology experience that place

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a child in the driver's seat and give them agency tend to be open-ended.

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They tend to be self-paced.

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Things that.

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Really allow for a lot of choice, that aren't designed to co-opt attention.

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So if you think about social media, it's kind of the

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ultimate co-op of our attention.

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it doesn't have to be that way though.

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So I talk a lot in the book about how the design of certain technologies

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makes it more or less self-directed.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:08:31

Ah, can you shed a little more light on maybe examples

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of instances where you felt like it was a successful self-directed technology

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relationship versus say social media.

Katie Davis: 00:08:44

Right.

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Absolutely.

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So one example that I give is, and this is for younger kids, but my son Oliver,

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loves this app called Peppa's Paint Box.

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It's from Peppa Pig

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:08:58

Hmm.

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it's a drawing app.

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And when he opens it, he's taken to a blank canvas automatically and he

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really is in the driver's seat there.

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He can decide what color he wants to choose, what implement he wants to

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use, whether it's a paintbrush or a pencil, and he can decide what he's

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gonna draw and put on that blank canvas.

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There's no music in the background that kind of emphasizes.

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A forward motion as many apps have music or they have timers that are counting down

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and they really are dictating the pace.

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With this app, it's very much self-paced rather than system paced,

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and there aren't any characters.

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Sometimes in kids' games, there are characters who cry when you exit the game.

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And that is sort of an, an incentive to keep the child on the

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platform and keep them playing.

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so that's an actually a great example of a, a dark pattern in design.

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There are lots of these dark patterns that designers will introduce deliberately

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into the design of a technology, whether it's for children or adults.

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And the specific purpose is to.

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Keep us engaged, keep our hold our attention, and keep us on

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the platform with social media.

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Examples would be the infinite scroll.

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There used to actually be an end to our feed, but there is no longer an end.

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Our feeds also used to be curated chronologically.

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Now they're curated algorithmically for the most part.

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And again, they're curated based on what the algorithm knows will capture

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our attention and hold our attention, not necessarily what is gonna support a

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feeling of mastery and self-direction.

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So yeah, so those are just some examples of when design can be used to support

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self-direction and when it can be used, not so much to support self-correction.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:10:50

I think sometimes it can feel like a gray area

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and knowing some of the, the signs or things to look for is super helpful.

Katie Davis: 00:10:57

Absolutely.

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Another thing that I look for and, it's based on research, that has been

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done actually by some of my colleagues at the University of Washington

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is determining when your child is interacting with the technology.

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It could be their phone, it could be a video game.

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Are they able to hold a conversation with you or is their attention completely

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absorbed in what they're doing now?

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Some of that is fine.

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You know, I let my son watch TV and when he is watching tv, nobody can talk to him.

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but I try to limit that because that's more of a passive experience and.

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There's not a lot that he's really doing.

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Sometimes we'll have interesting conversations about the show

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afterwards, and I try to encourage that because I can try to develop his

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storytelling abilities and, trying to understand what he, if anything

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he might have learned from the show.

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But, yeah, thinking about what can your child have a conversation with you,

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is a really good indicator if they're still in control of their attention.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:11:56

Ah, A a As you say that I'm thinking

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about all the times I've said something and there's no response.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:12:03

I'm like, hello?

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:12:04

Excuse me.

Katie Davis: 00:12:06

Yeah, absolutely.

Katie Davis: 00:12:07

And you know, we can turn this on ourselves as parents too.

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Sometimes I notice that Oliver tries to make a bid for my attention, but I

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am checking my phone or I'm checking my email and I realize, oh my goodness,

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my attention is totally co-opted.

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I am not in the driver's seat right now of my.

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Technology experience, so it really can go both ways and it's very

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useful I think, because parents are often struggling with the same

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things that their kids are struggling with when it comes to technology.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:12:37

I'm so glad you mentioned that, cuz

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:12:38

it is one of the themes that I.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:12:40

I think I tend to hit on in, my podcast is basically the importance of role modeling.

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And so being self-aware and noticing yourself and how these same things might

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affect us as parents is super important.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:12:54

and a great reminder.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:12:55

Yeah.

Katie Davis: 00:12:56

Yeah, and role modeling is actually a really important piece of the

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second step of this two-step decision tool, and that is community support.

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So parents are huge sources of community support, for kids technology experiences.

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And so this is the case.

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With little kids.

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So when I'm watching Oliver play Peppa's Paintbox, or when he's

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watching tv, I'm trying to talk with him about what he's learning.

Katie Davis: 00:13:22

So all of that, what I'm doing is providing support around

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his technology experience.

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When you get into older kids, tweens and teens, you know, they have much

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more, more sophisticated internal lives.

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You can have more in-depth conversations.

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And this, I think, is a great opportunity to role model, not

Katie Davis: 00:13:41

just to show your kids look at how I do it, and I'm doing so well.

Katie Davis: 00:13:45

Because it can be very powerful to show them what you're struggling with and

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maybe even have a dialogue and maybe even come up with strategies together.

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So one very common struggle that parents and teens have is checking

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their phone during the night.

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And that's a great opportunity to think, well, maybe we can have a pact where we

Katie Davis: 00:14:05

put our phones in a different room and you know, sort of become a team in trying

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to, address some of these challenges.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:14:13

Mm.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:14:13

I I love that to your point about, as your kids get older, having dialogue,

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:14:19

having discussion, cuz I think so much of.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:14:21

At least when I was raising my kids when they were a little younger,

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:14:25

were thoughts around limiting the screen time, and restricting what

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:14:29

it was that they had access to, which I still think is important

Katie Davis: 00:14:32

absolutely.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:14:34

And I think what you raise here about not

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:14:37

seeing technology as a necessary evil, but kind of acknowledging that it

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:14:44

exists and taking opportunities when you can to have it bring you closer.

Katie Davis: 00:14:49

Finding common ground I think is so important, finding

Katie Davis: 00:14:53

connection, especially when you are thinking about tweens and teens, sometimes

Katie Davis: 00:14:59

conversations can be challenging to have.

Katie Davis: 00:15:02

And, I think one thing that parents can do is approach these conversations

Katie Davis: 00:15:07

with real empathy and curiosity.

Katie Davis: 00:15:10

And really consider what teens are doing developmentally and

Katie Davis: 00:15:14

just how important it is to them.

Katie Davis: 00:15:17

So it's not that they're just hanging out with their friends, wasting time in the

Katie Davis: 00:15:21

context of hanging out with their friends.

Katie Davis: 00:15:24

They're doing really important development around their social development, their

Katie Davis: 00:15:29

identity development, and you might even think of that as a job that they have.

Katie Davis: 00:15:34

It's their developmental job is to figure out who they are and who

Katie Davis: 00:15:37

their friends are and what role they're gonna play in society.

Katie Davis: 00:15:41

Sometimes adults minimize or even dismiss Some things that teens are doing is

Katie Davis: 00:15:46

not important, but if we reframe that a little bit and think they're actually

Katie Davis: 00:15:51

doing a very important job, that's just as important as your job or my

Katie Davis: 00:15:55

job, that can help those conversations.

Katie Davis: 00:15:59

And really support a connection between parent and child in these

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conversations so that teens don't feel judged or they don't feel dismissed.

Katie Davis: 00:16:08

It's, that's really important cuz if they feel that they're not

Katie Davis: 00:16:11

really being listened to or their experiences aren't really being

Katie Davis: 00:16:15

taken seriously, they're unlikely to share a lot with their parents.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:16:19

Hmm hmm.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:16:21

Now, as you're saying this, I'm recalling an instance where, like, as a, I guess

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:16:27

it was kind of a punishment, but my knee jerk was to restrict access to the device,

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:16:33

but now I'm thinking, To your point about kind of that social interaction

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:16:38

being their job and developing as a young person and this device being part

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:16:42

of that, what advice do you have for parents in terms of access to technology

Katie Davis: 00:16:47

Well, I think, you know, parents have many roles that they can play

Katie Davis: 00:16:51

in this, and one role is as gatekeeper, especially in the early tween years.

Katie Davis: 00:16:56

There's a lot going on online and you don't want your child

Katie Davis: 00:17:00

to be exposed to all of it.

Katie Davis: 00:17:01

So I think it's absolutely.

Katie Davis: 00:17:04

reasonable for parents to play a larger role, especially in the early teen years.

Katie Davis: 00:17:09

So, for instance, introducing parental controls.

Katie Davis: 00:17:13

there's even an operating system that is specifically, tailored and designed for.

Katie Davis: 00:17:19

tweens and teens

Katie Davis: 00:17:21

And I think that that is absolutely appropriate.

Katie Davis: 00:17:24

But importantly, I think if.

Katie Davis: 00:17:26

Parents are going to use these tools like parental control apps and such.

Katie Davis: 00:17:31

It's important not just to put them on your child's phone and use them

Katie Davis: 00:17:36

to spy on them, but rather, use it as a way to engage in conversations

Katie Davis: 00:17:40

and say, these are the things that I am concerned about and this is.

Katie Davis: 00:17:44

What I'm gonna do as a result, and we're gonna have an ongoing dialogue and we're

Katie Davis: 00:17:49

going to observe and see how things go.

Katie Davis: 00:17:51

And over time we may remove some of the guardrails as appropriate.

Katie Davis: 00:17:56

And it's gonna be very individual child to child because children have very different

Katie Davis: 00:18:01

trajectories in their development.

Katie Davis: 00:18:03

And I think, you know, a one size fits all is not going to

Katie Davis: 00:18:07

work when it comes to when to.

Katie Davis: 00:18:09

Introduce a phone, when to allow your child onto social

Katie Davis: 00:18:13

media and things like that.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:18:15

That's another thing I loved about, your book was that

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:18:19

real encouragement to be, subjective or custom if you will, to your child's

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:18:25

needs and your child's situation.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:18:27

Cuz I can imagine that.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:18:29

if you have a child that struggles with a D H D or has some emotional concerns,

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:18:34

you may manage things in a different way versus, maybe a kid that really wants

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:18:38

to interact with social media strictly for, talking about Roblox or talking

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:18:43

about like their games or whatnot.

Katie Davis: 00:18:46

Kids are all different.

Katie Davis: 00:18:47

They're all very different.

Katie Davis: 00:18:48

So in technology's child, I introduced the idea of a good enough digital parent,

Katie Davis: 00:18:54

and the overarching framework for that, is first, the recognition of just how

Katie Davis: 00:19:01

much pressure there is on parents today when it comes to raising their kids.

Katie Davis: 00:19:06

And it's not just technology, but everything about parenting, making

Katie Davis: 00:19:10

sure that you're, you know, feeding them healthy foods and that you're

Katie Davis: 00:19:14

signing them up for the best camps.

Katie Davis: 00:19:16

, and then, you know, putting them on a path where they have had all these experiences

Katie Davis: 00:19:20

that they get into a good college.

Katie Davis: 00:19:21

There's just so much pressure on parents, and that applies to

Katie Davis: 00:19:25

technology experience as well.

Katie Davis: 00:19:27

And so I introduced the good enough digital parent as an antidote to

Katie Davis: 00:19:32

all of that pressure and that guilt.

Katie Davis: 00:19:34

the idea actually comes from a pediatrician, Donald Winnicott,

Katie Davis: 00:19:39

from the middle of the 20th century.

Katie Davis: 00:19:41

and Winnicott was talking about the idea of the good enough mother.

Katie Davis: 00:19:45

I've updated it at least to say, okay, the good enough parent,

Katie Davis: 00:19:49

um, um, fathers and mothers equally.

Katie Davis: 00:19:53

And the idea that when a cop was putting forward was that actually, if

Katie Davis: 00:19:58

you're there to respond to every bid your child makes for attention, then

Katie Davis: 00:20:05

you're actually doing them a disservice.

Katie Davis: 00:20:07

So if they're really frustrated, they're trying to figure out a puzzle or a

Katie Davis: 00:20:11

homework problem, and if you swoop in and help them solve it, they're

Katie Davis: 00:20:16

not gonna build the resilience to work through challenging experiences

Katie Davis: 00:20:21

and solve it for themselves.

Katie Davis: 00:20:23

If they are super bored and the parent is right there to suggest the next thing

Katie Davis: 00:20:29

that they can do, they're never gonna learn how to get themselves unbored.

Katie Davis: 00:20:34

So it's actually in kids' best interest Winnicott argued for parents to

Katie Davis: 00:20:40

actually embrace imperfection and not always be there 100% for your child.

Katie Davis: 00:20:45

So I bring that idea into the digital space and I say, okay, well the

Katie Davis: 00:20:50

good enough digital parent is gonna do their best to steer their child

Katie Davis: 00:20:55

towards self-directed community supported digital experiences.

Katie Davis: 00:21:00

But they'll know that they're not gonna be perfect at it because there's

Katie Davis: 00:21:03

always gonna be a new technology.

Katie Davis: 00:21:04

They probably don't have time to read all of the reviews in Common

Katie Davis: 00:21:08

Sense Media before they download an app or try out a TV show.

Katie Davis: 00:21:13

And that's okay.

Katie Davis: 00:21:15

good enough digital parents, they try things out.

Katie Davis: 00:21:19

Importantly, they observe how their children react, how they react

Katie Davis: 00:21:23

themselves, and they adjust accordingly.

Katie Davis: 00:21:27

good enough digital parents also recognize that they're struggling

Katie Davis: 00:21:31

themselves with technology and that they're not gonna be perfect at this,

Katie Davis: 00:21:34

And that's okay because they know that these technologies have been designed

Katie Davis: 00:21:38

specifically to co-opt our attention.

Katie Davis: 00:21:40

And sometimes we can use our, stumbles as teaching moments to teach our

Katie Davis: 00:21:46

children and say, you know what?

Katie Davis: 00:21:48

I've just become really distracted.

Katie Davis: 00:21:50

Let, let me turn my phone off and we'll just focus on the game that we were

Katie Davis: 00:21:54

playing or whatever we were doing before.

Katie Davis: 00:21:56

So I'm hoping that this concept of the good enough digital parent will

Katie Davis: 00:22:01

ease some of the guilt that I know parents are feeling around technology

Katie Davis: 00:22:06

because I am feeling it as well.

Katie Davis: 00:22:09

and actually the one other important piece is the recognition that

Katie Davis: 00:22:14

parents have not created all of these challenges and they shouldn't

Katie Davis: 00:22:18

be expected to solve all of them.

Katie Davis: 00:22:20

I think too often all of the burden of society's ills is placed on the family,

Katie Davis: 00:22:27

especially in an individualistic society like the US and so, Recognizing that it's

Katie Davis: 00:22:34

not just on parents to figure this out, but it's on the government and policy

Katie Davis: 00:22:39

and the tech industry itself and schools, everybody has a role to play in supporting

Katie Davis: 00:22:45

children's healthy, digital experiences.

Katie Davis: 00:22:52

Uh, I really liked this one.

Katie Davis: 00:22:54

I think technology is such a difficult thing to wrap your head around.

Katie Davis: 00:22:58

So I kind of loved Katie's reassurances on the good enough digital parent.

Katie Davis: 00:23:05

So here are my top six takeaways.

Katie Davis: 00:23:07

Number one is screen-time good or bad is not really the question.

Katie Davis: 00:23:12

Technology is embedded and part of our lives.

Katie Davis: 00:23:15

Instead let's ask, how does screen time aid, healthy development?

Katie Davis: 00:23:19

Number two.

Katie Davis: 00:23:20

Katie has a two step tool for assessing tech first seek self-directed experiences.

Katie Davis: 00:23:27

Avoid infinite scrolls, attention tricks, you know, manipulative ploys

Katie Davis: 00:23:32

within the games or apps they're using.

Katie Davis: 00:23:34

And secondly, the community support aspect, connect with your child

Katie Davis: 00:23:38

by discussing their digital world, what they learn, see, and absorb.

Katie Davis: 00:23:43

Number three developmentally, it's a teens job to shape their

Katie Davis: 00:23:47

identity friendships, and what roles they'll play in society.

Katie Davis: 00:23:51

So see online interactions as part of their work.

Katie Davis: 00:23:56

This helps us approach talks with empathy and compassion and let

Katie Davis: 00:24:00

them be heard and not feel judged.

Katie Davis: 00:24:03

Number four parental controls do matter, use them as tools to

Katie Davis: 00:24:07

discuss and share your concerns.

Katie Davis: 00:24:10

Number five there's no one size fits all approach to tech.

Katie Davis: 00:24:14

It really depends on the child.

Katie Davis: 00:24:16

Each child develops uniquely.

Katie Davis: 00:24:19

And number six, be a good enough digital parent.

Katie Davis: 00:24:22

We have a lot of pressure on us.

Katie Davis: 00:24:24

Try new things, adjust as needed.

Katie Davis: 00:24:26

Admit your struggles and embrace imperfection.

Katie Davis: 00:24:30

To learn more about Katie Davis's work visit katiedavisresearch.com and all

Katie Davis: 00:24:35

of her books are available on Amazon or at your favorite bookseller, including

Katie Davis: 00:24:40

technology's child digital media's role in the ages and stages of growing up.

Katie Davis: 00:24:47

It's a helpful read with many actionable tips and, Digestible advice.

Katie Davis: 00:24:52

And i recommended for anybody that's really trying to understand

Katie Davis: 00:24:55

technology and its impact on kids and wants to incorporate it in a healthy

Katie Davis: 00:25:00

way into their children's lives.

Katie Davis: 00:25:02

These links are in the show notes as well.

Katie Davis: 00:25:09

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Thanks so much for listening.

Katie Davis: 00:25:11

It takes action to claim something.

Katie Davis: 00:25:12

And by tuning in, you're showing up for yourself and your daughter.

Katie Davis: 00:25:16

And embodying curiosity and a growth mindset.

Katie Davis: 00:25:19

Celebrate that.

Katie Davis: 00:25:20

If you haven't done so already follow on your favorite podcasting platform,

Katie Davis: 00:25:24

tell a friend and leave a review.

Katie Davis: 00:25:27

Also visit KnowBeRaiseThem.com and drop me a line or a voice memo if you have

Katie Davis: 00:25:32

questions, comments, or topic ideas.

Katie Davis: 00:25:35

Again, I am grateful for your time and here's to strong women may we know them