Pam Luk: 00:00:00

there's a quote that I, I remember reading and

Pam Luk: 00:00:02

it sort of stuck with me.

Pam Luk: 00:00:03

I think it's Lily Tomlin, um, the actor and comedian.

Pam Luk: 00:00:06

She said, you know, I, I saw a problem one day and I said, somebody

Pam Luk: 00:00:09

should do something about that.

Pam Luk: 00:00:11

And then I realized, I'm someone.

Pam Luk: 00:00:17

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Welcome to know them at be them.

Pam Luk: 00:00:19

Raise them a show to help busy, mindful growth oriented moms.

Pam Luk: 00:00:23

Stay informed and inspired.

Pam Luk: 00:00:25

As they navigate their daughter's crucial tween.

Pam Luk: 00:00:27

And teen years, so they can show up for themselves and their

Pam Luk: 00:00:30

daughters the way they want to.

Pam Luk: 00:00:32

I'm your host Carmelita too.

Pam Luk: 00:00:33

And I am grateful.

Pam Luk: 00:00:34

You're here.

Pam Luk: 00:00:35

Remember to follow me.

Pam Luk: 00:00:36

@knowberaisethem on Instagram or Facebook and check out no B raise them.com.

Pam Luk: 00:00:43

I actually just included a tab that includes information about what I've

Pam Luk: 00:00:47

been doing on the coaching side.

Pam Luk: 00:00:48

And there's a link to.

Pam Luk: 00:00:49

Schedule a complimentary 30 minute coaching conversation if you'd like.

Pam Luk: 00:00:54

So if there are things in your life you want to accomplish,

Pam Luk: 00:00:57

whether it's a bucket list goal.

Pam Luk: 00:00:59

Redefining yourself after a life transition.

Pam Luk: 00:01:02

We're getting clear on how to make the impact you want to at work or at home.

Pam Luk: 00:01:07

Let's chat.

Pam Luk: 00:01:08

If nothing else we'll both leave the conversation with a new connection.

Pam Luk: 00:01:13

. So if you've been listening to those podcasts for a while, you

Pam Luk: 00:01:16

know that I've done past episodes on body image and body positivity.

Pam Luk: 00:01:20

With Debbie Serafin, for instance, she's a body relationship coach and Emily Lauren

Pam Luk: 00:01:25

Dick, a body positivity expert and author.

Pam Luk: 00:01:28

I'll link to those in the show notes, or you can go to Noby raise them.com and

Pam Luk: 00:01:32

click on the body image podcast category.

Pam Luk: 00:01:36

The reason I hit on this topic repeatedly.

Pam Luk: 00:01:38

And it's so important.

Pam Luk: 00:01:39

Is because as you know, our relationship with our bodies and our body image, Is

Pam Luk: 00:01:45

complex, especially for women and girls.

Pam Luk: 00:01:48

And it lasts a lifetime.

Pam Luk: 00:01:50

The societal challenges to healthy body image.

Pam Luk: 00:01:53

Don't stop.

Pam Luk: 00:01:55

And just like any relationship, really having a healthy relationship

Pam Luk: 00:01:59

with our bodies typically requires ongoing attention.

Pam Luk: 00:02:02

My guest today pam luck is familiar with how the world can make you feel

Pam Luk: 00:02:07

uncomfortable in your skin and what we can do about it . She's passionate

Pam Luk: 00:02:11

about body diversity and empowering kids to have a healthy body image.

Pam Luk: 00:02:15

She's also the founder of Ember and ACE and athletic

Pam Luk: 00:02:18

wear brand for plus sized kids.

Pam Luk: 00:02:20

She grew up playing sports and learned firsthand the importance

Pam Luk: 00:02:23

of finding active wear that fits.

Pam Luk: 00:02:26

Not finding it is actually one of the main reasons kids quit sports.

Pam Luk: 00:02:31

Amber and AEs launched their first five-piece essentials

Pam Luk: 00:02:34

collection on February 2nd, 2023.

Pam Luk: 00:02:38

Here's our conversation welcome Pam.

Pam Luk: 00:02:44

I'm super excited to chat with you about what you do and Ember and Ace and

Pam Luk: 00:02:51

let's, let's, I guess just jump into it.

Pam Luk: 00:02:53

Sure thing.

Pam Luk: 00:02:54

Well, I'll be very formal and introduce myself and say, hi, I'm Pam Luck.

Pam Luk: 00:02:57

I'm the founder of Ember and Ace which is, an athletic wear brand

Pam Luk: 00:03:01

exclusively for plus size kids and.

Pam Luk: 00:03:04

My story is really what led me to start Ember & Ace.

Pam Luk: 00:03:08

I have been plus sized my entire life and I played soccer and I danced as a teenager

Pam Luk: 00:03:14

and I struggled to find soccer clothing.

Pam Luk: 00:03:18

I was a goalkeeper, so a goalie shirt and pants that fit me.

Pam Luk: 00:03:21

I remember in high school having to shop in the men's department to try

Pam Luk: 00:03:24

and find something that would fit, which is not fun when you're 17, fyi.

Pam Luk: 00:03:27

And for dance, you know, struggling to find leotards.

Pam Luk: 00:03:30

And so I have a daughter, a teenage daughter, and she loves dance and

Pam Luk: 00:03:34

we're struggling to find leotards.

Pam Luk: 00:03:36

And so I'm like, it's been 30 years since I danced and it's still a problem.

Pam Luk: 00:03:42

Why is this still a problem?

Pam Luk: 00:03:44

You know, keeping kids involved in activities that they love is something

Pam Luk: 00:03:47

that really matters to me as a parent.

Pam Luk: 00:03:48

And I'm, so, I'm like, I can help solve this.

Pam Luk: 00:03:50

This is a problem that I understand.

Pam Luk: 00:03:52

It's a problem that I'm passionate about.

Pam Luk: 00:03:53

This is a group of kids that I used to be, I, I was a plus size kid, so I

Pam Luk: 00:03:58

said, I can partner with the right kind of folks to help me make this happen.

Pam Luk: 00:04:02

And so I just decided, and it was time, let's, let's solve this

Pam Luk: 00:04:06

problem because it's so solv.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:04:08

I love that you saw the problem and took

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:04:12

that additional step of making yourself part of the solution.

Pam Luk: 00:04:17

Yeah, there's a quote that I, I remember reading

Pam Luk: 00:04:20

and it sort of stuck with me.

Pam Luk: 00:04:21

I think it's Lily Tomlin, um, the actor and comedian.

Pam Luk: 00:04:24

She said, you know, I, I saw a problem one day and I said, somebody

Pam Luk: 00:04:27

should do something about that.

Pam Luk: 00:04:29

And then I realized, I'm someone.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:04:31

Hmm.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:04:31

That just gives me little goosebumps.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:04:33

Um, so I'd love to know your thoughts on why it's important

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:04:39

for kids to have clothes that fit.

Pam Luk: 00:04:42

Yeah.

Pam Luk: 00:04:43

Well, I think any of us can relate to not having clothing that fits you well, right.

Pam Luk: 00:04:46

As you, maybe as your body has changed and sort of how you feel.

Pam Luk: 00:04:49

But, you know, I think for me it's one of the reasons kids leave

Pam Luk: 00:04:55

the activities that they love.

Pam Luk: 00:04:56

There was a, a qualitative study that was done in the UK and just they asked a

Pam Luk: 00:05:00

bunch of kids and they said, look, the, the uniform doesn't fit and the shirt

Pam Luk: 00:05:03

rides up and I'm worried that my belly's gonna show like I want no part of it.

Pam Luk: 00:05:07

They want no part of it.

Pam Luk: 00:05:08

And so, A lot of times, and you know how teenagers can be, they

Pam Luk: 00:05:11

don't wanna talk to their parents.

Pam Luk: 00:05:12

So like all of a sudden they're not interested right in that sport anymore.

Pam Luk: 00:05:15

They're not interested in dance and you try to get an answer.

Pam Luk: 00:05:19

But for a lot of these kids, they'll just quit the things that if the

Pam Luk: 00:05:23

uniforms don't fit, they'll just quit.

Pam Luk: 00:05:25

And you know, I remember how much.

Pam Luk: 00:05:29

. I love dance, and I remember how much I, being a part of the

Pam Luk: 00:05:32

team for the soccer team, that's where all my friends were, right?

Pam Luk: 00:05:35

When we used to go to away games and you to ride on the bus and all of

Pam Luk: 00:05:38

the, I feel like, oh, there's a lot of connection, particularly in your

Pam Luk: 00:05:41

teenage years for doing things like karate or dance or soccer or basketball,

Pam Luk: 00:05:47

and even in the summertime, right?

Pam Luk: 00:05:48

Doing summer recreational programs so these kids don't get to be part of.

Pam Luk: 00:05:54

And so they're losing out on these opportunities to be members of a

Pam Luk: 00:05:58

team, to be in community with their kids, and just all the benefits

Pam Luk: 00:06:02

of physical activity, right?

Pam Luk: 00:06:03

The mental health benefits, improving your sleep, just all of the good

Pam Luk: 00:06:07

things that come from moving your body.

Pam Luk: 00:06:09

And now because they can't find these clothes, they just can't participate.

Pam Luk: 00:06:14

And I think I remember very distinctly feeling like this isn't a place for.

Pam Luk: 00:06:20

If this was a place for me, they would have clothing that fit me.

Pam Luk: 00:06:24

And so it, you start to feel like you don't belong in those spaces and

Pam Luk: 00:06:28

that can be a really tough message.

Pam Luk: 00:06:29

Particularly you can carry that into adulthood where

Pam Luk: 00:06:32

these places aren't for you.

Pam Luk: 00:06:34

And so I think it's really important.

Pam Luk: 00:06:36

We have to make it clear that these activities are for you and you do belong

Pam Luk: 00:06:39

in these spaces as young as possible.

Pam Luk: 00:06:42

And for a lot of kids, they're outgrowing clothing when puberty

Pam Luk: 00:06:45

sort of hits junior high, right?

Pam Luk: 00:06:47

So to me, it's really important that we try to catch this as early as possible

Pam Luk: 00:06:51

and say, you do belong here and it's okay for you to be in these places and,

Pam Luk: 00:06:56

and to do these things that you love.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:06:58

That is so true about the importance of, of

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:07:01

addressing it at a younger age too.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:07:03

Cuz you think about all the lessons that you start to internalize just because

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:07:07

you repeatedly are exposed to them.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:07:10

Whether it's witnessing your parents volunteering, like once you see it over

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:07:14

and over, it becomes ingrained as part of an identity that you can assume or

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:07:18

you can kind of own as like an extension of your family values and who you are.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:07:23

And to your point, if you're repeatedly seeing, that clothes

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:07:27

don't fit you, then absolutely.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:07:30

I can see how that can become, um, like a negative thought that just

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:07:34

starts coming back over and over and, and could even I would imagine, affect

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:07:39

kids to where it, it could extend even beyond a particular activity, but not

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:07:46

just, I don't belong in this activity, but I don't belong in this space.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:07:50

I don't know if I belong in this class, in this world.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:07:54

You know?

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:07:54

And the, that negative spiral of, um, feeling excluded could be potentially

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:08:00

really painful, I would think.

Pam Luk: 00:08:02

Yeah, for sure.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:08:03

Well, having been through a lot of these experiences

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:08:07

yourself and now in the stages of iterating a product for, plus size kids,

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:08:13

what, what would you say are some tips for parents that, that have kids who

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:08:18

feel uncomfortable in their bodies?

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:08:19

Like are there things that, we could say, or potentially things we should do?

Pam Luk: 00:08:26

Sure.

Pam Luk: 00:08:26

Um, I will say definitely start with making sure that they have clothing

Pam Luk: 00:08:30

that fits and I, I mean that, you know, sometimes you feel uncomfortable

Pam Luk: 00:08:36

in your body because maybe you've grown from spring to fall, right?

Pam Luk: 00:08:39

And so you're trying on some of the things that used to work and they don't feel

Pam Luk: 00:08:42

comfortable anymore, and so sometimes you, you have to realize the problem

Pam Luk: 00:08:46

isn't your body, it's the clothing.

Pam Luk: 00:08:47

So trying to address and get a few pieces, and I know it's tough, kids grow

Pam Luk: 00:08:50

so fast, but having a few pieces that fit really well that they feel confident

Pam Luk: 00:08:54

and comfortable in, So really, and some kids are great about saying, Hey,

Pam Luk: 00:08:58

these don't fit really well anymore.

Pam Luk: 00:08:59

They don't work for my body anymore, and some kids don't.

Pam Luk: 00:09:01

So trying to just tune in and, and check on things like that.

Pam Luk: 00:09:04

But I would also say first and for.

Pam Luk: 00:09:07

Don't panic that you're gonna get it wrong.

Pam Luk: 00:09:08

It's okay to sort of fumble through it a little bit, but always start,

Pam Luk: 00:09:12

I think, by just acknowledging sort of what they're saying.

Pam Luk: 00:09:16

I think there's always this rush to be like, no, you're okay.

Pam Luk: 00:09:18

It's okay.

Pam Luk: 00:09:19

And you move right past.

Pam Luk: 00:09:21

Maybe the emotional, like, let's just work through how this feels for you, um,

Pam Luk: 00:09:24

and try to get a handle on, I understand that you're struggling, I'm struggling

Pam Luk: 00:09:28

with, with your body and some of the changes and how you feel in your body

Pam Luk: 00:09:31

and maybe how it looks relative to some of the other kids in your class.

Pam Luk: 00:09:35

And sort of just trying to ask questions I think is also a big piece of this.

Pam Luk: 00:09:42

Trying to not put words in their mouth per se, but sort of tease out a

Pam Luk: 00:09:47

little bit, sort of what's going on.

Pam Luk: 00:09:49

Um, and try to listen more than talk.

Pam Luk: 00:09:52

And I know it's hard.

Pam Luk: 00:09:54

I I have a teenager.

Pam Luk: 00:09:56

Single word answers.

Pam Luk: 00:09:57

Yes, I understand.

Pam Luk: 00:09:59

But I think sometimes what ends up happening in my house is I'll raise

Pam Luk: 00:10:03

something, we'll talk about something.

Pam Luk: 00:10:04

It'll be a really brief conversation because what she's doing is sort of

Pam Luk: 00:10:08

marinating and working through that.

Pam Luk: 00:10:10

And so that same conversation will come back around.

Pam Luk: 00:10:13

So I guess that's the other piece.

Pam Luk: 00:10:14

Don't feel like you have to get it all handled in a single talk.

Pam Luk: 00:10:17

And this is also gonna be something, um, that comes.

Pam Luk: 00:10:20

a lot as bodies just continue to change for your entire life and through the

Pam Luk: 00:10:25

rest of your junior high and high school.

Pam Luk: 00:10:27

Um, and I would also say let's, yes, we can talk about the things that

Pam Luk: 00:10:31

are challenging, but let's also talk about like what are you excited about?

Pam Luk: 00:10:36

What makes you feel strong in your body?

Pam Luk: 00:10:37

What makes you feel good in your body?

Pam Luk: 00:10:39

And can we find a way to maybe bring more of.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:10:42

mm.

Pam Luk: 00:10:43

would say the same for me if I'm struggling with something like, what can

Pam Luk: 00:10:45

I do that makes me feel strong or makes me feel grounded or makes me feel good?

Pam Luk: 00:10:50

And let's try to do some of that in sort of, yes, absolutely working through some

Pam Luk: 00:10:54

of the tough feelings about maybe what's going on, but also let's talk about the

Pam Luk: 00:10:58

things that my body does really well.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:11:00

Yes.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:11:01

Yeah.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:11:03

And, and I love that it's, it's focused on kind of the doing of it.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:11:08

Um, I had an interview with a, um, she runs a, a group called

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:11:13

Body Confident Moms in Australia.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:11:15

in any event.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:11:16

she really emphasizes when you're dealing with tweens and teens and there's that

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:11:21

dip in confidence inevitably, especially for girls, to really look at your body as

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:11:27

as a tool and not as an ornament.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:11:29

So exactly what you were saying, looking at what, what am I really excited about,

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:11:35

what my body can do, how, what can my body do that makes me feel proud?

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:11:40

you know, removing your value from, the looks can be really, really empowering.

Pam Luk: 00:11:47

and I, I think an another piece of the puzzle that's sort of

Pam Luk: 00:11:50

along that line is, Social media.

Pam Luk: 00:11:53

I mean, I know we all have a lot of good and bad feelings about social media,

Pam Luk: 00:11:57

particularly when it comes to our kids, but I think we can find a way, again,

Pam Luk: 00:12:01

to try and pull out some of the positive components of having social media access.

Pam Luk: 00:12:06

And one of those things is try to diversify the kinds of

Pam Luk: 00:12:10

bodies you see in your feed.

Pam Luk: 00:12:12

There are a ton of plus size athletes that do basically every single

Pam Luk: 00:12:16

sport you can possibly think of.

Pam Luk: 00:12:18

I follow surfers, bikers, hikers, dancers, marathon runners, I mean the

Pam Luk: 00:12:25

list basketball players, , the, the list goes on and on, and so, You can

Pam Luk: 00:12:30

find people that have bigger bodies and that do the kinds of activities maybe

Pam Luk: 00:12:34

that you enjoy, and seeing people being successful and having fun and getting

Pam Luk: 00:12:39

out and doing the things that they love.

Pam Luk: 00:12:41

So I feel like to see your body is sort of this tool to, to do these things,

Pam Luk: 00:12:45

it helps you to see others doing these things, and particularly others in bodies

Pam Luk: 00:12:48

that look more like yours than maybe what you would traditionally see in most media

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:12:53

Hmm.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:12:53

I could not agree more that the absence of representation can really skew

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:13:00

someone's understanding of what's possible and what's healthy and what's normal.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:13:06

Like I, I was a kid in the eighties and, and there was a very specific

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:13:11

type of model you saw in advertisements and catalogs, and I'm so grateful

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:13:15

that we've evolved somewhat.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:13:17

Um, but obviously there's room for more growth and hence em Reneece.

Pam Luk: 00:13:23

Yeah, and I would say the one final thing I want folks to sort of

Pam Luk: 00:13:27

try to take away as they're thinking about conversations and things that

Pam Luk: 00:13:31

they have with their kids about bodies and modeling the kinds of behavior.

Pam Luk: 00:13:35

This goes back to what you were talking about, right?

Pam Luk: 00:13:36

About what your kids see you doing and saying, we all as adults have

Pam Luk: 00:13:42

to stop talking about individual bodies, including our own,

Pam Luk: 00:13:45

particularly in a negative way.

Pam Luk: 00:13:48

And I think.

Pam Luk: 00:13:50

That's tough for a lot of people, but I think it's a really good place to start

Pam Luk: 00:13:55

is to try and really catch yourself you're making just a off the cuff remark,

Pam Luk: 00:14:00

right , and so how are you talking about your own body in front of your children?

Pam Luk: 00:14:04

How are you talking about other bodies', celebrities?

Pam Luk: 00:14:07

People at your high school reunion coworkers, right?

Pam Luk: 00:14:10

How are you talking about their bodies?

Pam Luk: 00:14:12

And your kids are sort of hearing all that.

Pam Luk: 00:14:14

And, and so if in one breath you're saying all bodies are good bodies and they do

Pam Luk: 00:14:19

amazing things, but then they hear you talking about, Ugh, I put on 15 pounds.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:14:25

right?

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:14:26

Yeah.

Pam Luk: 00:14:27

It's sort of unravels, right?

Pam Luk: 00:14:29

They're hearing . That's a very two different messages.

Pam Luk: 00:14:33

So which one is it?

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:14:34

Mm-hmm.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:14:35

. Mm-hmm.

Pam Luk: 00:14:35

So I know it's hard, and particularly we in the United States are

Pam Luk: 00:14:39

bombarded and surrounded by diet culture.

Pam Luk: 00:14:42

It's billion dollar industry.

Pam Luk: 00:14:44

But that's a small step.

Pam Luk: 00:14:46

If folks are like, okay, that's, I'm trying.

Pam Luk: 00:14:49

Tell me how, what's one thing I can do?

Pam Luk: 00:14:51

And one thing you can do is be mindful about how you talk about your own body

Pam Luk: 00:14:54

in front of your, in front of your kids.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:14:56

Hmm.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:14:56

You know, it's funny, I, what you said just brought up for me this

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:15:00

idea that somewhere along the way in, in parenting daughters and

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:15:05

them, I, learned that we shouldn.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:15:09

Comment on how pretty a girl is or the, you know, because they might think that

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:15:14

that's the primary source of value and then become, you know, obsessed with that.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:15:18

I do have to say though that I've recently started to question that

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:15:23

and kind of, challenge it a little bit when you have girls as daughters

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:15:27

or there are girls in your sphere of influence that do not fit a standard

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:15:32

of beauty that diet culture embraces.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:15:35

um, or not even diet culture, but I'd say mainstream media

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:15:39

hasn't been as quick to embrace.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:15:41

So whether it's, you know, different physical abilities or different sizes

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:15:45

or, um, skin tones, I, I kind of feel like if you're dealing with kids that

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:15:51

are outside of, this western ideal of beauty then have at it, like compliment

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:15:56

them left and right because they're not gonna get it from the outside world

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:16:01

or from the media for the most part.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:16:03

Maybe things change, but you know, the, the messaging so far outweighs

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:16:09

to the, to the negative in a way.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:16:11

that hearing some positive reinforcement from you that they're okay and their

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:16:15

body is beautiful to me, feels.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:16:18

. It feels like they need that.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:16:20

Otherwise, the only input they're getting is that they don't see anyone like

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:16:24

them in this setting or that setting.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:16:27

that just came up for me relatively recently, but how do you feel about that?

Pam Luk: 00:16:30

I think as an, there is no, there's no black and white here.

Pam Luk: 00:16:35

It's always gonna be, I think it's like in all things parenting, right?

Pam Luk: 00:16:39

when are there times when that needs to come up?

Pam Luk: 00:16:42

And then when are there times when you're also focused on other things?

Pam Luk: 00:16:46

And I think the flip side of that coin is also, Starting as kids get older to start

Pam Luk: 00:16:51

to understand who benefits from making you feel poorly about what you look like,

Pam Luk: 00:16:56

who benefits from feeding you a certain story about eye shape or skin color or

Pam Luk: 00:17:02

body size, who benefits from those things.

Pam Luk: 00:17:05

And then sort of talking about the messaging that we're getting, and so

Pam Luk: 00:17:09

not seeing those things as truth, but understanding what the message is that

Pam Luk: 00:17:14

they're sort of receiving and also, so they're defining beauty one way.

Pam Luk: 00:17:19

Why would they wanna do that?

Pam Luk: 00:17:20

What are they trying to.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:17:21

Mm-hmm.

Pam Luk: 00:17:22

What's the benefit they're looking for, but also how do you

Pam Luk: 00:17:26

see, and then asking, asking your own child what's beautiful to you.

Pam Luk: 00:17:29

What, what do you see as beautiful?

Pam Luk: 00:17:31

What, you know what I mean?

Pam Luk: 00:17:32

So trying to even just, yes, and it, I would say yes.

Pam Luk: 00:17:36

I think it can be challenging to not hear that your body is beautiful,

Pam Luk: 00:17:40

particularly if you struggle with your size, but also trying to just

Pam Luk: 00:17:43

broaden and talk about other things and beauty in a different way, I guess as

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:17:48

Hmm.

Pam Luk: 00:17:49

at the same.

Pam Luk: 00:17:50

Um, because I do think to your point, particularly girls, so much value is

Pam Luk: 00:17:54

tied into physical aesthetic and just all the things that to some degree you don't

Pam Luk: 00:18:00

have a tremendous amount of control over.

Pam Luk: 00:18:02

And that's gonna obviously change over time.

Pam Luk: 00:18:05

Right?

Pam Luk: 00:18:06

As you age suddenly your value diminishes what is happening?

Pam Luk: 00:18:09

I don't know.

Pam Luk: 00:18:10

No, that's not, that is not the case.

Pam Luk: 00:18:12

So

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:18:13

Right.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:18:14

you know, something that, I noticed when you talk about Ember and Ace

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:18:19

and , the population that it serves, you use the term plus size kids

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:18:24

I'm curious what your thoughts are on that and you know, are

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:18:27

there nuances we should consider?

Pam Luk: 00:18:30

I think there are, I will start by saying I have reclaimed

Pam Luk: 00:18:33

the word fat, so I do invite people to use the word fat to describe me

Pam Luk: 00:18:37

when you're talking about my body.

Pam Luk: 00:18:39

Because there is a, an effort to sort of take that word and actually use it

Pam Luk: 00:18:44

in a way that it was intended to be used, which is a descriptor of a body

Pam Luk: 00:18:47

that has more fat than another, right?

Pam Luk: 00:18:49

You have a thin body that has less fat, you have a fat body that has more fat, and

Pam Luk: 00:18:52

sort of, that's where the definition ends.

Pam Luk: 00:18:54

And I think, the challenge is around, there is still, there

Pam Luk: 00:19:00

are those two things I would say.

Pam Luk: 00:19:01

First that word is still used and has historically been used to try

Pam Luk: 00:19:07

and harm people in bigger bodies.

Pam Luk: 00:19:10

Um, and they do that by attaching other attributes.

Pam Luk: 00:19:15

Other fat didn't just mean bigger body, it means lazy.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:19:21

Hmm.

Pam Luk: 00:19:22

uneducated because obviously if you were smart and not lazy

Pam Luk: 00:19:27

right, you wouldn't be fat anymore.

Pam Luk: 00:19:28

So they've, all these other things have been sort of wrapped up in that word and

Pam Luk: 00:19:32

used to try and inflict harm on people.

Pam Luk: 00:19:34

And so I think for a lot of people that are fat, it's very difficult

Pam Luk: 00:19:39

still to sort of hear that word.

Pam Luk: 00:19:40

And there are still people that use it in that way to inflict harm.

Pam Luk: 00:19:43

And so there are folks that don't use it, and I completely understand that.

Pam Luk: 00:19:47

And.

Pam Luk: 00:19:49

of my reason behind choosing to do plus size kids as the term that I

Pam Luk: 00:19:52

use for these kids was because I feel like it's a word that you have to make

Pam Luk: 00:19:57

a choice for yourself to use and to then share with others that they're

Pam Luk: 00:20:00

allowed to use it with you as well.

Pam Luk: 00:20:01

But it starts with you making that choice for yourself.

Pam Luk: 00:20:05

And I didn't wanna sort of force that word onto these kids who are

Pam Luk: 00:20:09

already sort of struggling during a difficult time to sort of navigate all

Pam Luk: 00:20:13

the things going on with their body.

Pam Luk: 00:20:15

And I will say this, I do know that a lot of parents, particularly with

Pam Luk: 00:20:18

younger children, are talking about fat and thin in that very like the way we

Pam Luk: 00:20:22

wanna be using it, right as a descriptor.

Pam Luk: 00:20:24

And that's where we start moving the needle, right?

Pam Luk: 00:20:27

And starting to make a change.

Pam Luk: 00:20:28

And I think the, they're just, it's again, a yes and yes, do that,

Pam Luk: 00:20:32

but also say people use that word to try and hurt people, and some

Pam Luk: 00:20:37

people are not comfortable with it.

Pam Luk: 00:20:38

So, you know, just being mindful of the conversations that you're

Pam Luk: 00:20:42

having and how you're using that word

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:20:44

Yeah.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:20:45

Hmm.

Pam Luk: 00:20:45

And I would say there are some people that also don't wanna call

Pam Luk: 00:20:49

out plus sizes being different from, you know, standard size or thin kids.

Pam Luk: 00:20:53

But part of why I think it's important is because these kids

Pam Luk: 00:20:57

can't find clothing, right?

Pam Luk: 00:20:58

, I need folks to be able to find the clothes that are gonna fit their kids.

Pam Luk: 00:21:01

So that's part of, you know, there are brands that are working toward

Pam Luk: 00:21:05

it and maybe that's something we can, you know, hope for, for the future.

Pam Luk: 00:21:07

But until that day comes, I want these kids to know that I'm here

Pam Luk: 00:21:11

to serve you and I am making things specifically for your body.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:21:14

I love that.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:21:16

Yeah.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:21:16

And, you've put a lot of thought into how you can best serve your audience and,

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:21:22

and so the choice of terminology, um, I really respect how you approach that.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:21:27

It makes a lot of sense to me.

Pam Luk: 00:21:29

Thank you.

Pam Luk: 00:21:29

There's a little teenager inside of me that's sort of running

Pam Luk: 00:21:32

that whole making process.

Pam Luk: 00:21:34

I think, you know, and that's where, you know, this being something

Pam Luk: 00:21:37

that's so close to my heart because of my daughter, but also because

Pam Luk: 00:21:40

I grew up as one of these kids.

Pam Luk: 00:21:42

I understand to some degree, and it's not that it's the same experience for

Pam Luk: 00:21:45

everyone, but I think there's common themes that, you know, come up for just

Pam Luk: 00:21:50

the things that we all want for our kids

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:21:52

Yeah.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:21:53

Oh, as we wrap up, I was wondering if you'd like to leave the audience

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:21:58

with a parting quote or, or thought.

Pam Luk: 00:22:02

I have a quote that I use that I try to put on my website and

Pam Luk: 00:22:05

on my social media, and that is this.

Pam Luk: 00:22:08

An athlete isn't defined by their size, and you can be a runner.

Pam Luk: 00:22:13

A biker, a biker a dancer.

Pam Luk: 00:22:16

You can be all these things regardless of size.

Pam Luk: 00:22:18

So I think it's important that people start to hear that and internalize it.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:22:22

Oh, I just got the chills because that was never

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:22:25

a message that I heard growing up, And so I am, I'm happy to support that

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:22:31

message through this platform as well.

Pam Luk: 00:22:34

I appreciate it and thank you so much for letting me come

Pam Luk: 00:22:36

and talk about this and I hope you know if folks have questions.

Pam Luk: 00:22:40

. You know, please let me know, but I, I'm hopeful that they'll think about

Pam Luk: 00:22:42

what they've heard today, even if it's not something that they've necessarily

Pam Luk: 00:22:47

given a lot of thought to, or if it's, they've had different ideas

Pam Luk: 00:22:50

about bigger bodies and people that are plus sized, but I'm hopeful that

Pam Luk: 00:22:53

they'll just sort of take it all in.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:23:01

I have to admit one of my favorite

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:23:02

things about interviewing guests is when I'm forced to confront my

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:23:05

own biases and areas for growth.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:23:08

I never thought about the ripple effect of not having athletic clothes that fit.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:23:13

How that messages to kids and adults.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:23:16

That this activity isn't for you.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:23:19

This was a sobering reminder of how bias and privilege work, where I

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:23:24

didn't even really see how structures might exclude others because they

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:23:28

didn't create friction for me.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:23:30

Any who.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:23:31

It makes me want to try and see better to have fewer blind spots

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:23:36

so I can be more inclusive.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:23:38

So here are today's key takeaways from my conversation with Pam.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:23:43

Number one.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:23:44

As early as possible, we have to make spaces and activities for

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:23:47

kids as inclusive as possible.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:23:50

By giving kids and teens access to active wear that fits them.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:23:54

We're telling them that they belong.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:23:55

It's okay for them to be in these places.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:23:58

And you.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:23:58

You can do these things that you love.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:24:01

Number two, help your daughters find clothes that fit.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:24:04

If they don't feel comfortable in clothes.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:24:06

They may think it's a problem with their bodies when it's actually fixable by

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:24:11

getting them better fitting clothing.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:24:14

Side note.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:24:14

I had to check myself a couple of years ago.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:24:17

When my daughter was asking for new pants again and saying she

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:24:20

didn't like the clothes I bought her three to four months earlier.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:24:24

My knee jerk reaction was to think that she was being fickle and was

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:24:27

falling prey to a consumerism.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:24:29

But when she tried her pants on, they were short and the waist was really tight.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:24:33

So, yeah.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:24:34

Um, that was a lesson to me to be open to dialogue.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:24:37

Don't assume, you know what's going on.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:24:39

Um, especially when thinking about clothing and your girls

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:24:43

and what works best for them.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:24:45

Number three, listen to your daughter when she's grappling with her body image.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:24:49

Remind her that even if she's struggling with a growing or changing body,

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:24:53

It's still a good and valuable body.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:24:57

Ask her.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:24:57

What makes you feel strong in your body?

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:24:59

What makes you feel good in your body?

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:01

Encourage her to.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:02

To think of her body as a tool, not an ornament.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:06

Number four.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:07

Diversify the kinds of bodies you see in your social media feeds,

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:10

there are different accounts that feature bodies of all sizes.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:13

So challenge your own unconscious biases by.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:16

Widening your lens.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:19

Number five, stop talking about how individual bodies look including your own.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:24

Catch yourself.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:25

If you're making comments.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:27

And number six.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:28

Encourage your kids to be media literate.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:30

When you see advertising.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:32

I help them question.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:34

Who's benefiting from this.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:36

What message are they sending?

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:38

What are they trying to accomplish?

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:40

Media literacy, encourages critical thinking.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:43

It helps kids see how media affects our culture and it teaches them how not to

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:47

be swayed by persuasive techniques that advertising and influencers might use.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:54

To learn more about Ember and ACE and their athletic wear for plus sized kids.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:25:58

Visit Ember and ace.com.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:26:00

That's E M B E R a N D a C e.com.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:26:05

The five-piece essential.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:26:07

His collection is available now.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:26:09

Thanks so much for listening and if you haven't done so already follow

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:26:13

on your favorite podcasting platform.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:26:15

Tell a friend about the show and leave a review.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:26:19

Also visit knowberaisethem.com.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:26:22

And follow me on Instagram @knowberaisethem.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:26:26

I hope you have a wonderful week and here's to strong women.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:26:30

May we know them?

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: 00:26:31

May we be them?